Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield

2025-11-20 · 91 min · 59 entities

episode page audio

Asserted relationships

→ references Positioning Battle Your Al Ries book

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evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Positioning-Battle-Your-Al-Ries/dp/0071373586
→ references We Dont Sell Saddles Here 4c59524d650d website

0.77

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://medium.com/@stewart/we-dont-sell-saddles-here-4c59524d650d
→ references Glitch Video Game person

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evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glitch_(video_game
→ references Principles Life Work Ray Dalio book

0.77

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Principles-Life-Work-Ray-Dalio/dp/1501124021
→ references Quit Power Knowing When Walk book

0.77

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Quit-Power-Knowing-When-Walk/dp/0593422996
→ references Magic Link person

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evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Link
→ references Prisoner'S Dilemma person

0.77

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma
→ references Stuart Little person

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evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Little
→ references Dharma & Greg person

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evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_%26_Greg
→ references Why Nothing Works Killed Progress And book

0.77

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Why-Nothing-Works-Killed-Progress_and/dp/154170021X
→ appeared on Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth podcast

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evidence rules-v4
Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield
→ authored Thinking in Bets book

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evidence rules-v4
author of “Thinking in Bets”
→ authored Thinking in Bets book

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evidence rules-v4
author of “Thinking in Bets”
→ hosted by Lenny Rachitsky person

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evidence rules-v4
Feed author/publisher: Lenny Rachitsky
→ recommended Positioning Battle Your Al Ries book

0.50

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Positioning-Battle-Your-Al-Ries/dp/0071373586
→ recommended Positioning Battle Your Al Ries book

0.50

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Positioning-Battle-Your-Al-Ries/dp/0071373586
→ recommended Thinking in Bets book

0.50

evidence rules-v4
author of “Thinking in Bets”
→ recommended Thinking in Bets book

0.50

evidence rules-v4
author of “Thinking in Bets”
→ recommended Principles Life Work Ray Dalio book

0.50

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Principles-Life-Work-Ray-Dalio/dp/1501124021
→ recommended Principles Life Work Ray Dalio book

0.50

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Principles-Life-Work-Ray-Dalio/dp/1501124021
→ recommended Quit Power Knowing When Walk book

0.50

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Quit-Power-Knowing-When-Walk/dp/0593422996
→ recommended Quit Power Knowing When Walk book

0.50

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Quit-Power-Knowing-When-Walk/dp/0593422996
→ recommended Why Nothing Works Killed Progress And book

0.50

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Why-Nothing-Works-Killed-Progress_and/dp/154170021X
→ recommended Why Nothing Works Killed Progress And book

0.50

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Why-Nothing-Works-Killed-Progress_and/dp/154170021X
→ discusses Technology company

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evidence rules-v4
Feed category: Technology
→ discusses Business concept

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evidence rules-v4
Feed category: Business
→ discusses Entrepreneurship concept

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evidence rules-v4
Feed category: Entrepreneurship
→ references penname.co website

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evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://penname.co/
→ references slack.com website

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evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://slack.com/
→ references flickr.com website

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evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://flickr.com/
→ references blok.so website

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evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://blok.so/
→ references ticketmaster.com website

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evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://ticketmaster.com/
→ references Three Questions With Slacks Ceo person

0.38

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://technologyreview.com/2014/11/21/170330/three-questions-with-slacks-ceo
→ references Kaizen Toyota Production System person

0.38

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://mag.toyota.co.uk/kaizen-toyota-production-system
→ references Parkinsons Law person

0.38

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://economist.com/news/1955/11/19/parkinsons-law

Entities found in this episode

books 21

mentioned Positioning Battle Your Al Ries book

0.90

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Positioning-Battle-Your-Al-Ries/dp/0071373586
mentioned Principles Life Work Ray Dalio book

0.90

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Principles-Life-Work-Ray-Dalio/dp/1501124021
mentioned Quit Power Knowing When Walk book

0.90

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Quit-Power-Knowing-When-Walk/dp/0593422996
mentioned Why Nothing Works Killed Progress And book

0.90

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Why-Nothing-Works-Killed-Progress_and/dp/154170021X
references Positioning Battle Your Al Ries book

0.77

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Positioning-Battle-Your-Al-Ries/dp/0071373586
references Principles Life Work Ray Dalio book

0.77

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Principles-Life-Work-Ray-Dalio/dp/1501124021
references Quit Power Knowing When Walk book

0.77

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Quit-Power-Knowing-When-Walk/dp/0593422996
references Why Nothing Works Killed Progress And book

0.77

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Why-Nothing-Works-Killed-Progress_and/dp/154170021X
mentioned Thinking in Bets book

0.72

evidence rules-v4
author of “Thinking in Bets”
authored Thinking in Bets book

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evidence rules-v4
author of “Thinking in Bets”
authored Thinking in Bets book

0.62

evidence rules-v4
author of “Thinking in Bets”
recommended Positioning Battle Your Al Ries book

0.50

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Positioning-Battle-Your-Al-Ries/dp/0071373586
recommended Positioning Battle Your Al Ries book

0.50

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Positioning-Battle-Your-Al-Ries/dp/0071373586
recommended Thinking in Bets book

0.50

evidence rules-v4
author of “Thinking in Bets”
recommended Thinking in Bets book

0.50

evidence rules-v4
author of “Thinking in Bets”
recommended Principles Life Work Ray Dalio book

0.50

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Principles-Life-Work-Ray-Dalio/dp/1501124021
recommended Principles Life Work Ray Dalio book

0.50

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Principles-Life-Work-Ray-Dalio/dp/1501124021
recommended Quit Power Knowing When Walk book

0.50

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Quit-Power-Knowing-When-Walk/dp/0593422996
recommended Quit Power Knowing When Walk book

0.50

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Quit-Power-Knowing-When-Walk/dp/0593422996
recommended Why Nothing Works Killed Progress And book

0.50

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Why-Nothing-Works-Killed-Progress_and/dp/154170021X
recommended Why Nothing Works Killed Progress And book

0.50

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://amazon.com/Why-Nothing-Works-Killed-Progress_and/dp/154170021X

persons 19

mentioned Glitch Video Game person

0.90

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glitch_(video_game
mentioned Magic Link person

0.90

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Link
mentioned Prisoner'S Dilemma person

0.90

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma
mentioned Stuart Little person

0.90

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Little
mentioned Dharma & Greg person

0.90

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_%26_Greg
references Glitch Video Game person

0.77

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glitch_(video_game
references Magic Link person

0.77

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Link
references Prisoner'S Dilemma person

0.77

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma
references Stuart Little person

0.77

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Little
references Dharma & Greg person

0.77

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_%26_Greg
mentioned Stewart Butterfield person

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evidence rules-v4
Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield
mentioned Lenny Rachitsky person

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evidence rules-v4
Feed author/publisher: Lenny Rachitsky
hosted by Lenny Rachitsky person

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evidence rules-v4
Feed author/publisher: Lenny Rachitsky
mentioned Three Questions With Slacks Ceo person

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evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://technologyreview.com/2014/11/21/170330/three-questions-with-slacks-ceo
mentioned Kaizen Toyota Production System person

0.45

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://mag.toyota.co.uk/kaizen-toyota-production-system
mentioned Parkinsons Law person

0.45

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://economist.com/news/1955/11/19/parkinsons-law
references Three Questions With Slacks Ceo person

0.38

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://technologyreview.com/2014/11/21/170330/three-questions-with-slacks-ceo
references Kaizen Toyota Production System person

0.38

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://mag.toyota.co.uk/kaizen-toyota-production-system
references Parkinsons Law person

0.38

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://economist.com/news/1955/11/19/parkinsons-law

websites 12

mentioned We Dont Sell Saddles Here 4c59524d650d website

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evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://medium.com/@stewart/we-dont-sell-saddles-here-4c59524d650d
references We Dont Sell Saddles Here 4c59524d650d website

0.77

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://medium.com/@stewart/we-dont-sell-saddles-here-4c59524d650d
mentioned penname.co website

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evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://penname.co/
mentioned slack.com website

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evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://slack.com/
mentioned flickr.com website

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evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://flickr.com/
mentioned blok.so website

0.45

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://blok.so/
mentioned ticketmaster.com website

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evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://ticketmaster.com/
references penname.co website

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evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://penname.co/
references slack.com website

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evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://slack.com/
references flickr.com website

0.38

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://flickr.com/
references blok.so website

0.38

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://blok.so/
references ticketmaster.com website

0.38

evidence rules-v4
Link in episode "Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield": https://ticketmaster.com/

concepts 4

mentioned Business concept

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evidence rules-v4
Feed category: Business
mentioned Entrepreneurship concept

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evidence rules-v4
Feed category: Entrepreneurship
discusses Business concept

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evidence rules-v4
Feed category: Business
discusses Entrepreneurship concept

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evidence rules-v4
Feed category: Entrepreneurship

companys 2

mentioned Technology company

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evidence rules-v4
Feed category: Technology
discusses Technology company

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evidence rules-v4
Feed category: Technology

podcasts 1

appeared on Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth podcast

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evidence rules-v4
Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield

Episode description as stored

Stewart Butterfield is the co-founder of Slack and Flickr, two of the most influential products in internet history. After selling Slack to Salesforce in one of tech’s biggest acquisitions, he’s been focused on family, philanthropy, and creative projects. In this rare podcast appearance, Stewart shares the product frameworks and leadership principles that most contributed to his success. From “utility curves” to “the owner’s delusion” to “hyper-realistic work-like activities,” his thoughts on craft, strategy, and leadership apply to anyone building products or leading teams. We discuss: 1. Hyper-realistic work-like activities 2. The owner’s delusion 3. Utility curves 4. “Don’t make me think” 5. “We don’t sell saddles here” 6. Tilting your umbrella 7. When to pivot — Brought to you by: WorkOS —Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs Metronome —Monetization infrastructure for modern software companies Lovable —Build apps by simply chatting with AI — Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/slack-founder-stewart-butterfield — My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/178320649/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation — Where to find Stewart Butterfield: • X: https://x.com/stewart • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/butterfield — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Introduction to Stewart Butterfield (04:58) Stewart’s current life and reflections (06:44) Understanding utility curves (10:13) The concept of divine discontent (15:11) The importance of taste in product design (19:03) Tilting your umbrella (28:32) Balancing friction and comprehension (45:07) The value of constant dissatisfaction (47:06) Embracing continuous improvement (50:03) The complexity of making things work (54:27) Parkinson’s law and organizational growth (01:03:17) Hyper-realistic work-like activities (01:13:23) Advice on when to pivot (01:18:36) The importance of generosity in leadership (01:26:34) The owner’s delusion — Referenced: • Slack: https://slack.com • Flickr: https://www.flickr.com • Cal Henderson on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/iamcal • Blok: https://blok.so • Brandon Velestuk on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandon-velestuk-6018721b • Magic Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Link • Ticketmaster: https://www.ticketmaster.com • John Collison on X: https://x.com/collision • Patrick Collison on X: https://x.com/patrickc • Sundar Pichai on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sundarpichai • Three Questions with Slack’s CEO: https://www.technologyreview.com/2014/11/21/170330/three-questions-with-slacks-ceo • Six Sigma: https://www.6sigma.us • What is kaizen and how does Toyota use it?: https://mag.toyota.co.uk/kaizen-toyota-production-system • John Collison’s post on X about passion projects: https://x.com/collision/status/1529452415346302976 • Parkinson’s law: https://www.economist.com/news/1955/11/19/parkinsons-law • We Don’t Sell Saddles Here: https://medium.com/@stewart/we-dont-sell-saddles-here-4c59524d650d • Glitch: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glitch_(video_game) • IRC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC • This will make you a better decision-maker | Annie Duke (author of “Thinking in Bets” and “Quit,” former pro poker player): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/making-better-decisions-annie-duke • The woman behind Canva shares how she built a $42B company from nothing | Melanie Perkins: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-making-of-canva • Prisoner’s dilemma: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma • Stewart Little : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Little • Dharma and Greg : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_%26_Greg • Stewart’s post on X referencing “the owner’s delusion”: https://x.com/stewart/status/1223286626991796224 — Recommended books: • Principles: